How do you remove over FOUR pounds from a layering system and increase performance?
ANSWER: FABRIC & TECHNOLOGY
I was hoping to remove two pounds when I developed the KUIU line when compared to my work at Sitka. Four pounds surprised me.
Ounces matter for climbing mountains. Ask any professional bike racer how much they spend to save an ounce. Every ounce eats up kilos, the lighter your set up, the better you will feel, especially over a 10-day hunt. This mentality dominates professional mountaineering and cycling.
There is no reason ounces should not be just as important to mountain hunters. There is nothing smart about carrying a 90lb pack unless you are required to.
To build the best gear, you have to use the finest fabrics. I met with the worlds leading technical fabric suppliers, including Schoeller, Polartec, and Toray before developing the KUIU line.
Founded in 1926, Toray is a leading chemical manufacture based in Osaka Japan. Toray fuses nanotechnology into its operations, using organic synthetic chemistry, polymer chemistry and biotechnology as its core technologies. Using Chemistry to solve industries most challenging problems, Toray operates leading divisions in medical, chemical, carbon fiber and textile industries. Toray leads the textile industry in new technology developments in all three major groups of synthetic fibers-nylon, polyester, and acrylic fibers. Toray is setting new standards in waterproof breathable laminates and durable water repellency (DWR).
Primeflex Spiral Yarn
Toray’s development of the patented Primeflex yarn increases fabrics durability, decreases weight, dry-time, and stretch-recovery over time. Primeflex fabrics use a patented spiral yarn technology, allowing for the yarn to stretch and recover without using elastic such as lycra or spandex. Elastic is heavy, hydrophilic (attracts water) and has a limited life expectancy. Toray’s Primeflex fabrics are lighter weight with much better performance and durability than competitive fabrics.
KUIU is exclusively using Primeflex fabrics for all of its outwear, which is a key ingredient to saving 4 pounds in the layering system. The Primeflex fabric collection is a range of 100% Poly fabrics that include stretch woven, soft shell and waterproof breathable fabrics.
Waterproof Breathable
Toray has developed the highest rated 4 way-stretch waterproof breathable laminate available, which has an unmatched 20,000mmH2O/20,000g/m2 24 Hour rating. This allows for a maximum waterproof and breathability and stretch in one package. This is a performance level only KUIU has introduced to the hunting industry.
Durable Water Repellency
Kudos XR is a new DWR developed by Toray has reset the standard in durability and performance. Kudos XR DWR performs better and last significantly longer. DWR is critical for waterproof breathable face fabric. If DWR fails the face fabric “wets out” causing condensation build up on the inside of the garment.
Compared to a conventional waterproof coatings that are applied over the fabric’s entire surface, Toray’s Kudos DWR finish is actually applied to every individual fiber to allow the fabric to have better air permeability to eliminate stiffness.As you see from Toray’s supporting data, not all DWR’s are the same.
Water Resistant Down
Through nanotechnology, Toray has created a water repellent finish for down feathers called Quixdown that makes a feather essentially waterproof. Toray’s Quixdown now eliminates the need for synthetic insulation which is significantly heavier, bulkier and not nearly as warm as down.
As I stressed in my previous Branded Fabric post, it is important to understand what you are buying. Today, most “technical” gear is rarely made using the best fabrics and technology available. Competitive price pressures have forced most brands to cut corners and move away from companies like Toray to less expensive fabric knock offs. There is a very big difference.
By partnering with Toray, KUIU continues to market products with a higher performance level so you can get more out of you on tough mountain hunts. Four pounds is just one result.
I look forward to your thoughts and feedback regarding this information.
Jason
Jason,
I was recently at a hunting show and speaking with a rep who handles both Sitka and Simms waders (so I know he is biased). But he mentioned something I wanted to hear your response regarding. He said that Simms uses Toray for their “entry level” waders and the Gore products for their higher end waders. As a fly-fisherman as well as mountain hunter I found this interesting as I have had “cheaper” waders fail on me before but have had great success with the Gore based products. There is a CLEAR weight difference between the lower and higher end waders however. So I guess my question is, are you using different Toray fabrics from what Simms would be using?
Great question. I cannot comment on what product Simms uses from Toray. Toray makes quite a wide range of products. We only use Toray’s Primeflex fabric collection which is there finest and most advanced product line and technology and also the most expensive.
I know Gore-tex very well and expanded teflon does work well for waders because of the pressure differential between a warm body and cold water which is essential for Gore-tex to function. Toray’s Dermizax PU Laminate technology breaths better, stretches, is more durable, quieter, more comfortable and is more waterproof.
Gore-tex’s is not a great choice for hunting gear compared to what other technologies that are out there.
Jason
Now that I have saved four pounds I would like to add two ounces back. Please double the amount of Quix Down in the jacket.
Randy, what and when are you hunting that you need a jacket this warm as a mid-layer? We started out with this much down in the 1st prototype but it was too warm because of the Polish Down Loft to do much with other than wear at camp. Let me know.
Jason
This is interesting. I actually like the current SD jacket but a warmer one would be nice. Justin Starck said it pretty well, when you’re on the move you typically don’t need an insulation piece like the spindrift or SD because you’ll overheat. The jacket is most effective when you are sitting down for long periods of time to glass or you’re waiting on a herd of elk to come out of the woods into a clearing to feed and you’re waiting all day because you just missed them going in (personal experience). Depending on the temperature and the length of time towait a warmer jacket would be nice. This is from a mountain hunting perspective, an eastern whitetail hunting perspective the warmer jacket is great for sitting in a blind or treestand all day during late season hunting.
Just my .02, not sure why Randy wants it…
When I got my Guide Jacket I did a quick “eye ball” and “feel” test with a North Face jacket I purchased about 2 years ago that I have noticed has become very popular. Not a really inexpensive jacket, at the time I believe I paid about $150. The material looks similar, feels similar, but even with the hood, which my North Face Jacket doesn’t have, the Guide Jacket is much lighter and blocks wind much better than my North Face Jacket.
Sourced vs Branded Fabrics.
This post reminds me of a recent discussion that I had on Facebook.
Other – “If you can’t kill animals, hunting with any of this stuff won’t help. If you can kill animals, hunting without it won’t stop you. All of this stuff is a brilliant marketing idea. More animals have been killed wearing cotton and flannel than all the sitka and kuiu combined.”
Me – “Yes, more animals have been killed using cotton and wool flannel than all the technical hunting clothes combined. You have to remember though, the wool flannel was the best hunting clothing available in the past. Now we have lighter, warmer, better performing gear that allows us to do longer more comfortable trips in the backcountry. Could we do without it, yes, but why be miserable when you don’t have to be? I do agree that some of the “technical” brands rely on “brilliant marketing” but gear of KUIU quality has been a long time coming to the hunting industry and I’m glad that it has arrived.”
VERY well said Justin!!
Justin,
Who ever said that to you is probably the same person who would argue that people communicated just fine on their land lines and they don’t need a cell phone. Makes me chuckle.
Not only was the cotton and wool hunting gear the only thing they had back then, but the people still using it today road hunt out of trucks and atv/utv’s and usually aren’t open to the new innovations.
KUIU is made for those of us that want to hunt in the most remote places possible where we experience conditions when you actually need KUIU’s ultralight hunting gear. Not to mention, this gear is amazing for anything outdoors/in the mountains (ie. skiing, backpacking, fishing, etc.)
Great post, as we get older the less weight we have to carry the better off we are.
P.S. good talking to you at the S.L.C. show keep up the good work!
Thanks Joe!!
I may not be climbing mountians in my hunting endevors but as a older hunter there is nothing wrong in being comfortable and wearing light weight clothing it sure feels right after 5 or 15 miles. Thanks Jason keep the good work
You are more than welcome ehunter!
I don’t hunt, but I wear the camo attack pants. Love them, good quality, comfortable, cool pattern. I am wearing them right now. I will take them camping, but I like them clean. I will order a pair in the solid color and maybe those people will stop staring at me at the post office… haha.
I am happy to hear you are wearing the camo!
Justin Starck nailed it! Our grandparents didn’t have any epidermal mess to have kids and generations before us have had kids without it, but ask my better half and she’ll take it every time to be comfortable. Yes, it’s not needed, but why be uncomfortable during birth when you don’t have to be.
I love the line and as a huge hunter in south Texas I wear it whether I’m walking on a rattle hunt, or sitting on my laurels in a box blind with a sports illustrated waiting for the right trophy to walk out.
Keep up the good work Jason! You keep making and ill keep buying!
Weldon
Agreed!
Wow!!! I didn’t realize KUIU saved that much weight. I will be doing my first true mountain hunt (although I have killed ten of the 29 North American species ) this September on a mountain goat brown bear hunt in SE Alaska. I am trying to shave as much weight as possible including on my own body. This weight savings will be much appreciated chasing goats. Thanks for everything Jason.
Yes, put it on the scale. You are welcome Joel.
My dream is to someday own the full line. Until then I will be buying piece by piece.
Glad to be part of your dream!
Hi Jason – I have heard other people say the same thing, that they want more down in the new jacket. I think that a great solution for those that want more insulation would be a Quixdown vest to wear underneath? It would keep the bulk down in the arms for movement and shooting yet keep more core body heat in. I like the jacket the way that it is and really enjoyed it on my hike this last weekend (it was 15 degrees Monday morning when I got out of my tent) however I am one that would buy the vest and keep it in the pack for the really cold mornings and evenings. The ability to layer this last four days was really important and at 45 years young the lighter the better! Thanks for your hard work.
Ken Allen
Note on the Vest. It will be available in the future.
J
Love the engineering and technology Jason!
“The pessimist sees the glass half empty, the optimist sees the glass half full, and the engineer sees too much glass.”
Shaving weight and maintaining or increasing performance for clothing is always a good thing. Keeps us all working hard and enjoying the outdoor experience that much more. Sure nice to know we’re paying for something more than just marketing.
Ryan-
I like where you were going here! May I expand? (that was a yes? I felt the Universal Energy, say ‘yes or sure’?!?!) LOL
Technically, the glass is ALWAYS 100% full!!!
IN THIS CASE-
50% (whatever/water)+
50% (whatever/air)= 100%
As you stated, (the pessimist) will always see (less than 50%).
The (optimist), will always see greater than 50%.
I believe, the engineer and the Tech. see it as 100% Full!!!
From a Tech’s point of view.
It is the ‘INNOVATOR’, that MUST figure out a way, to shift the balance…… Even 1%, toward the ‘optimist/Tech./Engineers side!
The ‘Building KUIU Blog’, is making that attempt, with ‘Hard data, visual proof, and transparency’, that has NEVER BEEN MADE AVAILABLE, in this line of commerce!
EVEN, the ‘pessimist’ should agree with that!
Although advertising, has been bumped up a touch- Here on this, ‘Building KUIU Blog’, is where all the information you need, to make an educated purchase, exists. Pictures/Data/Customer insight/answers to ‘your specific questions’… They are ALL HERE.
I Love these, ‘school time posts’, as I continue to educate myself toward better understanding and purchasing.
You were ‘spot on’, my friend…… I KNOW, every dollar spent @KUIU, is a WELL SPENT DOLLAR.
Innovation takes some understanding!
‘Building KUIU Blog’, provides that………. FREE OF CHARGE!!!
Thank you, J.H./KUIU/ and you Ryan-
JMV
Thank you Jeff! I always look forward to reading your take on my posts! Well said.
J
Thanks Ryan!!
Ryan-
Sorry about the math part. I broke down “half empty, and half full” as 50%, which was a distracting and NON-ACCURATE measure of your comment about ‘pessimists and optimists’.
My Apology… I hope, this still comes across as informative!
JMV
I personally think when you are packing 60 to 70 pounds more than 5 miles and you remove 4 or 5 lbs. it is almost like you could run.I will cut weight any way possible and I think Kuiu is on the right track……how about sleeping bags..Thanks Mike
The 1st Super Down Sleeping Bag prototype is here and it is AWESOME! We made comments and expect the next prototype next month to test. More to come on this development.
Jason
Jason-
This product, is going to change EVERYTHING!(Not just hunters)
PLEASE, in your prototype testing, acknowledge- There is, AT LEAST ONE, KUIU CUSTOMER FOR LIFE, that is 6’7″!!!
I have had NO PROBLEMS, fitting into my ‘Marmot Helium +15 degree bag’, supposedly fitted to 6’6″. PLEASE make a version that size!!!
I PROMISE, I will pre-order if you can size one for me!!!
Be Well-
JMV
Jason! I really appreciate you explaining the materials used! It really helps me understand better why I truly believe KUIU has the best gear! Plus I have alot of people always asking me why I have so much faith in KUIU and this post here pretty much sums it up!!!
I am so happy to hear you find value in posts such as these.
Jason
what items does this 4lbs reference?
scott d.-
I would encourage you to go to- KUIU.com And click on the ‘about’ tab.
After reading that, you may consider going back to KUIU.com
And take a look at the ‘Shop’ tab.
After many hours of consideration, you may come up with a ‘layering system’ that KUIU is providing.
In answer to your question-
That ‘layering system’, may provide 4 lbs. worth of weight savings- Over anything else you may have/find or are considering from another manufacturer.
Understand, that- This potential weight savings, is based off a 6’2″ish, 215 lbs’ish, person……….. OOO… He is the Owner/Founder of KUIU!
It is in the realm of possiblity, that I- @ 6’7″ and 240 lbs’ish, COULD CONCEIVABLY, shave even more weight, from a previous ‘layering system’. If you are shorter than either of these, your weight savings may be slightly lower,(but still lower).
Has this helped?
If not, just point your browser to KUIU.com
All the answers you seek, are there.
Enjoy-
JMV
i was more wondering items you chose, 185 superdown chugach, or 185 230 vest superdown chugach or some other variance
Jason,
I have to disagree with you. Gore-tex makes some awesome products. I have always been happy with the gore-tex products I have purchased. That being said I can see how you are biased towards your Toray fabrics. I only own a pair of attack pants as of now and really like them. I love the stretch. I just don’t think it’s fair to call all other products on the market junk. Sitka, the company you helped start makes some great gear as well as go lite, kifaru, kryptek, etc. I just just wanted to make my opinion know. I will purchase some more gear when I can but there is lots of good products out there, not just Kuiu.
Tye-
I wonder, if you realized when typing your comment, you defeated the entire position, you were attempting to make, with this sentence-
“I only own a pair of attack pants as of now and really like them. I love the stretch.
Those are YOUR words!
Perhaps, another product- Might confirm, your sub-conscious???
For the record- “I don’t believe Jason, EVER used the word “junk” in his post. I am not going back over all of it AGAIN… Just take my word… That doesn’t sound like, something HE would say!
If I am wrong, well….. It wouldn’t be the first time
If you can “float the cash”, try getting a Guide Jacket for your next purchase. Spent some time in that, and come back, and tell us all- If you still can’t hear that sub-conscious, saying- ‘I really like this, and the stretch.’
Hit the ‘OUTLET’ when shopping… You may find some AMAZING deals there, for your consideration.
JMV
No I didn’t. I like the Kuiu gear I have. I also like goretex gear as well. That’s all I was saying
Hi Tye,
Great comment! Thank you!
The data on Gore-tex compared to today’s laminate technology shows its short comings in breathability, durability, stretch, versatility and noise. It does not mean you will not have a good experience with the product. However, there are much better products on the market. Gore-tex is using the same technology developed in 1972. There has been many advancements in the past 40 years.
I never said Sitka makes junk or any of my competitors gear is junk. KUIU is different because I set up this business model to buy significantly better fabrics and technology to make products my competitors cannot afford to make because they resell their products to retailers. I do not. Research some of the European Brands that sell products that use Toray and you will have a better understanding of how expensive KUIU products would be if I had to sell them to Cabela’s.
I love this type of discussion and appreciate your comment. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Jason
Jason,
I appreciate the response. I will do some more research and hopefully buy some more gear. Only problem I have is length. I am 6’5″ and 215. The attack pants were a bit short in the length but should work with gaiters. Maybe I will contact you regarding some tall sizes as mentioned by others in the forum. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Tye! I just emailed you back. Let me know if you have any other questions.
J
Gore-Tex hasn’t produced the most breathable laminant for many years now.
true!
Jason,
Can you please detail the comparisons you made to Sitka to achieve the 4 lb weight savings? I’m curious as I have quite a bit of KUIU and Sitka gear and would like to see the data. I’m assuming its Attack pant vs Ascent pant, Guide vest vs Jetstream vest, Superdown zip vs Kelvin, Guide Jacket DCS vs Jetstream jacket, Merino 185 vs Merino Zip T, and Chugach gear vs Dewpoint (or Cloudburst) system. This info would really help me finish up my gear bag and fill in the pieces I don’t have yet. I will admit the only Sitka piece I’ve bought in the past 18 months is the Timberline pant with the waterproof seat and knees, and have picked up almost everything KUIU offers in that time as well. I did quite a bit of research on the other offerings in water resistant down (Sierra Designs and Patagonia both have this now) and found the Superdown to be the best cut, lightest and most cost effective. If you would be willing to put up the comparison data, I’d greatly appreciate it. Thanks for pushing the boundaries of the industry and keep up the great work.
Chugach vs Stormfront. They are both 3 layer hardshells other than that I believe you have it covered. I do not really want to lay it out in detail as I do not think it will be fair to Sitka and I am not trying to bash the competition or my old brand, just showing the technological advantages of KUIU’s products by buying the best fabrics and technologies in the world and quantifying it. I am glad you like the gear!
J
BUT… You could go so much further in weight saving! True “ultralight” you are not by mountaineering standards. You make mountain hunting clothes and we need durability which means more weight. Even I can understand that. I’m a gram weenie and proud of it, and this blog makes me feel you are as passionate in the same way. Thank you for this!!
However for instance, why not offer true ultralight versions of your products. My chugach jacket and pant work and work very well. But to have handwarmer pockets?! On “ultralight” clothing?? Is this your personal preference or better for sales to a Cabelas hunter consumer?
An Anorak/pullover with one napoleon chest pocket would be more suited to this goal of saving weight. My chugach pant is perfect, zero pockets and kudos for that design. I chose your Guide Vest over the jacket again to save weight and a redundant hood and pockets.
I exhort you,no beg and plead, to design your new Chugach Dermizax NX with True ultralight in mind… ie no pit zips if it truly breaths that well!
I could go on with every item in your line and know you are more than aware where we could save weight. I would love a detailed explanation to your designs on all of them! When I read your inner pocket design on your icon, it helped to understand your concepts and use.
You’ve really excited me with your line up, and I am encouraged with your commitment to dropping every gram a hunter can, a mountaineering philosophy that I trust you’ll push to the LIMITS!
Hi Bradley,
I cannot agree with you more. More to come in the future.
Jason
I understand your desire to outfit the professional guides and the demands they require. However, that compromises the true ultralight hunter, and obversely we compromise them.
2 product lines is necessary. Pockets and zippers counter the ultralight philosophy. A pocketless shell is still not attainable in the outdoor market! With your new binocular harness with side mesh pouches, and a pack belt with pouch, this truly would be an integrated Kuiu system with no redundant and inaccessible jacket pockets. I’m eagerly waiting!!
Jason, I have a Kuiu vs Sitka story. My friend and I where caught in a rain/snow storm in November in N. Idaho. We had about a 4 mile walk back to camp though a downpour and soaked brush. I had on a Guide jacket and pants. He had on 90% pants and Jacket. When we got back to the tent we cranked the stove up and stripped down to our base layers. He started griping about how wet and cold he was and how we should of had rain gear. That’s when I realize, beside my shoulders I was dry! You could wring the water out of my buddy merino top. I know that’s not a scientific test. But my friend has a lot more Kuiu gear now.:)
Real world testing is reality for hunting. I love hearing stories like this and it is EXACTLY why I built KUIU. Thank Ryan!!!!
Jason
I am happy to bash Sitka for you
Their prices have gotten out of hand for what you get. The better price value is Kuiu and I have a lot of sitka or did.
Have you considered something similar to wildthings (www.wildthingsgear.com) custom clothing? One could add/remove pockets, hoods, insulation and change colors for what seems to be a reasonable price (at least over their regular prices).
Regardless, I assume you have things in hand. I would own more than I do if shipping costs to Canada were less.
KUIU is not set up as a custom or made to order sewing shop like Wildthings or Mystery Ranch or Kifaru. It is not part of this business model or plan. I am working on some ways to reduce costs and time to Canada.
Jason
Great post. Very similar to older posts, with some updates on material (quixdown).
Great information for ‘newbies’ and great reminder for us ‘oldies’
Thanks Shane for you comment as always.
great info! you mentioned a prototype sleeping bag is in the works, filled with Super Down. all the posts about the jackets are with Quix Down. Is this a different product? or just simply a typo? also, you mentioned it was polish down. is this the same as Eiderdown, or is it different?
Yes I am working on a sleeping bag line for KUIU that will filled with Super Down using Toray Fabric. I am not sure what Eiderdown is? In all of my research Polish Down is the highest quality down in the world.
Does this topic imply some new raingear in the (hopefully) near future? I’m ready and waiting.
I agree with Randy Schmacher’s comments about a little more down. I would also love to be able to stuff the hood out of the way in a zipped or velcroed enclosure. The hood snags on branches when your stalking some game species.
Hi, I see your down is 850+fill. What is the fill power after the coating is applied to the down. The down has to gain some weight with the coating. What is the fill power after the coating is added.